This morning we mentioned a breaking news report about a fatal crash between two drivers in South LA’s Florence neighborhood that may have involved two people on bicycles.
Sadly, our worst fears have bee confirmed, although several of the details were wrong.
No other bike rider was involved in the crash, despite the presence of two badly mangled bicycles, as seen in this screen shot from the KNBC-4 broadcast, with one attached to a bike trailer.
Findley may have been ghost riding the other bicycle, which is where a person rides one bicycle while towing another riderless bike alongside.
It’s also possible that the second bike may only appear to be damaged, and could have been left by a bystander.
Findley is described as the second youngest out of nine brothers and sisters, and leaves behind an adult son.
According to KCBS-2, the driver who hit him admitted to street racing; however, that has not been confirmed by other sources. He was arrested on suspicion of gross negligence and vehicular manslaughter.
This is at least the seventh bicycling fatality in Southern California this year, and the third I’m aware of in Los Angeles County; it’s also the first in the city of Los Angeles.
My deepest sympathy and prayers for James Findley and all his loved ones.
Thanks to Steve S and Sindy Saito for the heads-up.
Breaking news: KNBC-4 reports there was a fatal crash between two drivers at 82nd and Broadway in South LA’s Florence neighborhood, which appears to have involved a pair of bike riders in a collateral damage crash.
No word on who was killed, but chances are, it was one or more of the people on bicycles.
Not so simple answer: There is nothing in California law that forbids riding abreast.
Some police agencies attempt to use CVC 21202 to forbid riding abreast, which requires bicyclists to ride as far to the right as practicable, concluding that the outside rider is violating the law.
However, they fail to consider the many exceptions to CVC 21202, which make it clear that the requirement to ride to the right does not apply on lanes that are too narrow to safely share with a motor vehicle. Which is most of the right hand traffic lanes in Southern California.
In which case there is no limit to the number of people who can ride abreast — as long as you remain within a single lane.
However, you still have to pull over to the right when safe to do so if there are five or more vehicles following behind you and unable to pass. But once again, that does not apply in some circumstances.
Like if there are two or more lanes in the direction you’re traveling, in which case drivers can simply change lanes to pass.
It’s also worth noting that the law doesn’t apply if you’re riding at the speed of traffic around you.
So if you’re riding the speed limit, or drivers are slowed to your speed by congestion, you can ride wherever the hell you want.
Including riding abreast if that’s what you want.
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This is why people continue to die on our streets.
And yes, there is video, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Some things you just can’t unsee.
At least the judge told him not to drive, though. And everyone knows meth heads do exactly what they’re told.
Right?
Thanks to Brian Kreimendahl of Bike Santa Fe for the heads-up.
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This is what’s known as a disproportionate response.
A road raging Seattle woman tries to run people over after someone hit her car with a snowball. Then gets out of her car and physically attacks them until she was restrained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OixUArkFwTE
Seriously.
Attempted murder is never an appropriate response.
Thanks to J. Patrick Lynch for the tip.
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Norm Bradwell forwards a new video that explains how Toronto increased bicycling rates a whopping 1095% on two busy roads for a paltry $1.25 million.
That Portland woman who killed a bike rider while high on her dog’s Xanax got a well-deserved 15 years behind bars. Hopefully that comes with a mandatory drug treatment program for both of them.
He gets it. An op-ed in a Florida paper says the three E’s — education, enforcement and engineering — aren’t enough to lower the state’s worst in the nation bicycling death rate; it will take solid data, and real action based on that data.
Florida lawmakers consider making the same mistake California made by raising the threshold for felony theft from $300 to $1,500, although the Golden State only made it $1,000. Problem is the value of most bicycles is far less than that, making it the equivalent of a Get Out of Jail Free card for bike thieves.
A Florida woman is suing Lime for a crash that left her daughter in a persistent vegetative state over instructions that tell e-scooter users to ride in the street, even though that’s illegal in the state. In California, it’s illegal to use motorized scooters on the sidewalk. Thanks to David Drexler for the tip.
International
Another day, another smartphone app promising to alert drivers to the presence of bike riders and pedestrians. But only if the driver and the person on the bike or on foot both have it installed and turned on. Not to mention convincing drivers they don’t have to pay attention because the app will do it for them.
An Irish cycling coach says 2019 will be the worst year ever for bicycle crashes, because too many people are learning to get fast on virtual trainers before they develop the skill to ride safely on the streets.
Who needs Vision Zero when you have some of the nation’s crappiest drivers? Seriously, when you’re riding your bike with five outstanding warrants while carrying drug paraphernalia and an illegal weapon, obey the damn traffic laws, already.
And it’s probably not the best idea to text your husband to say you’re at the local tavern after just attempting to run his bike down with your car.
February 11, 2019 /
bikinginla / Comments Off on Morning Links: Bike-riding spy in Nazi Germany, Inside the Issues clips, and solving US health crisis with bikes
There’s not much about bikes in this story.
But something tells me you’ll want to read it anyway.
A 98-year old woman, now living with her husband in Los Angeles, describes what it was like to infiltrate Nazi Germany as a 24-year old, blue eyed blond Frenchwoman who lost her sister and 29 other relatives in the Holocaust.
As Allied forces entered Germany, she borrowed a bicycle to ride to the southern part of the country. And posing as a frightened German citizen, found out from a Nazi officer where the remnants of the German army were waiting to ambush the Allied Forces.
There’s no telling how many lives she may have saved, or how much her bravery may have shortened the war.
A reminder that you never know who that little old lady once was.
Like maybe a 4’11” bike-riding hero who helped save the world.
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Unfortunately, I can’t link to Friday’s Inside the Issues report about LA bicycling issues on the Spectrum News 1 channel, since they don’t archive their shows online.
Never mind that people paying for their cable and internet service might actually want to see it if they missed the initial broadcast. Let alone everyone else who doesn’t get SoCal Spectrum service.
Let alone Inside the Issues.
But at least they’ve tweeted a few clips from the show, including one with yours truly talking about the Frederick “Woon” Frazier tragedy.
22-year-old cyclist Frederick "Woon" Frazier was tragically killed in a hit and run. The driver disguised her vehicle with cheap paint. Ted Rogers @TedRogersLA of @bikinginla says not much is being done to keep drivers in check. @SpecNews1SoCalpic.twitter.com/fAStzKSpJF
Nothing will cure a case of the Mondays faster than this thread from Peter Flax, showing a number of classic Hollywood celebrities were each one of us, too.
Looking to cheer up a Friday afternoon with a celebration of Hollywood glamour and bicycles.
Streetsblog’s Joe Linton says forget expensive highway projects in the mayor’s 28 by 2028 program to accelerate Metro projects for the ’28 LA Olympics; instead, he says focus on transit and equity, as well as expanding open streets, bikeshare and protected bike lanes.
This is who we share the roads with. An allegedly stoned driver plowed into a crowd of people in Fullerton as they left local nightspots early Sunday morning, seriously injuring ten people. But sure, tell us again how you were nearly killed by someone on a bicycle that one time.
The South Coast Air Quality Management District, aka AQMD, is moving forward with a proposal for a half-cent sales tax increase to fund clean air projects. Someone should tell them there’s nothing cleaner than bicycles and bike lanes.
Napa County’s new bike plan proposes another 453 miles of bikeways, to compliment the county’s existing 142 miles. Although those totals include bike routes, which are pretty meaningless except for wayfinding. And not always then.
Inspired by Steinbeck’s The Grapes of Wrath, five Australian musicians rode their bikes from Sallisaw OK to Bakersfield to recreate the Joad family’s journey on just $420 — the modern equivalent of the $18 the Joads got for selling all their belongings — busking and relying on handouts along the way for the rest.
An Australian website asks if it’s a country of horn-honking hulks and road-ragers, noting that one in five Aussies say they’ve experienced road rage or aggressive driving directed towards people on bicycles.
Thanks to Danila O for her generous donation to support this site, and keep bringing SoCal’s best bike news coming your way every day. Donations of any amount are welcome any time, for any reason.
Instead of responding to an increase in bicycling and pedestrian death by going after the people in the big, dangerous machines, New York police are cracking down on the people on two wheels, in some cases ticketing bike riders from violations that don’t actually exist.
The good news, former Columbian pro Juan Pablo Valencia Gonzales wasn’t accused of doping. The bad, he was arrested by Italian authorities on drug trafficking charges after he was found in possession of over 60 grams of cocaine he had allegedly transported in the seat tube of his bike.
I’ll be joining Curbed LA’s inestimable Alissa Walker, new LACBC Executive Director Eli Akira Kaufman, and Romel Pascual, Executive Director of CicLAvia to paint the Spectrum audience a portrait of biking in Los Angeles, good, bad and otherwise.
I tried to recommend a few other bike advocates with better insights and more TV-friendly faces, but for some reason, they wanted mine.
Go figure.
So let’s just hope I don’t break your TV.
Inside the Issues airs at 7 pm on channel 1 if you’re an LA-area Spectrum Cable subscriber. If not, it should be posted online at the above link sometime after it airs.
Who knows. Maybe I can parlay this into a talking head role as the highly paid bike pundit for CNN.
It could happen.
Let’s all play a drinking game tonight.
Take a sip every time I mention aggressive or distracted drivers, and take a shot every time I say “traffic safety deniers.”
If I do my job right, by the time the show’s over, no one will care whether I screwed up or not.
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The war on cars may be a myth, but the war on bikes goes on.
According to the local paper, the ordinance would have imposed the following restrictions, which probably would have killed bike riding entirely in the town.
Bicyclists are not allowed to ride on streets that have no bike safety lane
Bicyclists are not allowed to ride side by side and must be at least 10 feet apart.
Bicyclists older than 16 must register their bike with the town;
Bicyclists are not allowed to wear head phones, sound-preventing device or any type of hearing distraction; and
Bicyclists could be fined $250 for the first offense and $500 for subsequent ones.
The man claimed he drafted it “out of concern for ‘human lives'” after seeing some people ride unsafely.
Just a reminder that there are people out there who would gladly take away our right to the road based on the actions of a few.
Or just restrict it in ways that serve the same purpose.
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The war on bikes, part two.
A San Diego cyclist says a truck driver attempted to run him and his riding partners off the road.
While riding bikes in San Diego on Friday, the white truck in the background here had just tried to intentionally run us off the road. So I tracked down his company and called his boss today. Not letting him off the hook. pic.twitter.com/U5wqnZzlqQ
Reporting the miscreant driver to his employer was the right thing to do.
However, it’s also a crime; attempting to deliberately run down someone on a bicycle or run them off the road is assault with a deadly weapon. Which means he should also be reported to the police, especially if there’s video evidence of the attack.
Even if the police can’t do anything now, they’ll have a report on file that may be useful if the driver does it again to someone else.
It was the prior police reports that didn’t result in prosecution that finally helped make the case against Dr. Christopher Thompson in the infamous Mandeville Canyon brake check.
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Somehow we missed this one last month.
David Drexler forwards video of a brazen tag-team bike theft in broad daylight on a busy street in DTLA, directly in front of Whole Foods.
Watch to the end to see just how much teamwork went into it.
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The Anaheim Police Department says share the road in a new video posted on Facebook, explaining to an angry driver that bike riders have the right to take the lane.
Thanks to Erik Griswold for the link.
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British TV personality Jeremy Vine had what has to be the close call of the day, if not the year, as an impatient and overly aggressive driver buzzed him while passing in the bike lane he was riding in.
A Moreno Valley bike rider was busted in Santa Monica for riding salmon, riding without a light, and delaying a police officer — evidently by making them look for her when she tried to flee the traffic stop. The first two are just ticketable offenses, so she must have really pissed them off.
A homeless man was sentenced to two years behind bars for beating another transient with his bicycle before attacking two Santa Ana police officers who tried to intervene.
Snowy Halifax, Nova Scotia is gearing up for Friday’s International Winter Bike Week with a full week of winter bike events. The forecast for Halifax calls for a rainy 45° on Friday; Los Angeles should be sunny and 15 degrees warmer. Just saying.
This is the cost of traffic violence, too. A British woman overdosed on heroin in her Paris apartment as she struggled to cope with killing a teenage bike rider; she had moved to Paris after the breakup of her marriage following the crash.
February 5, 2019 /
bikinginla / Comments Off on Morning Links: Fight over road diets goes national, flooding closes GMR, and Emperor Norton was one of us
Advocates, alert: “Keep L.A. Moving,” a small, vindictive group of well-heeled westsiders with little regard for the safety of L.A.’s most vulnerable and disadvantaged residents, is now pushing its disinformation to a national audience – or, at least, attempting to – by rebranding itself as “Keep The U.S. Moving…”
As bicycle advocate Peter Flax has noted, KLAM’s work seems to thrive best in closed-door conservative echo chambers, like Nextdoor and closed Facebook groups. From there, they work to seed aligned broadcast media, including right-wing radio, where their claims are not questioned. When their dubious assertions, for example “[road diets cause] more accidents, more pollution, more gridlock, heavy traffic,” are actually aired in public debate, or studied using actual real world data, they just don’t hold up.
Like climate change deniers, these “Keep Moving” groups deny data-based studies showing that speed kills and that road diets work…
Behind all their crackpot assertions is the empowerment of drivers in well-to-do communities. These ideologues push for unfettered driver access at the expense of safety for all road users, particularly those who have the fewest mobility choices available to them and who are most at-risk to harm. The “right” of this handful of disgruntled drivers to speed is costing the lives of tens of thousands of people in the U.S. every year. Unfortunately, this is a double whammy to low-income communities of color, whose residents continue to die at higher rates. And as Rutgers’ Charles Brown points out, minority communities overlooked for road diet safety improvements “receive enforcement” instead.
It’s well worth clicking the link to read all of Linton’s hard-hitting story.
Because these are the people who, so far at least, have succeeded in halting road diets and other vital safety measures in Los Angeles, keeping our streets dangerous and deadly so people like them can continue to drive unimpeded.
At least until LA’s inevitable encroaching gridlock forces them to a full stop.
And if they have their way, everywhere.
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Popular riding route Glendora Mountain Road is closed until further notice due to flooding.
UCLA is offering a week-long, 550-mile bike tour along the California coast to learn firsthand about the impacts of climate change, and possible solutions. Solution #1 — ditch the car, and ride a bike. Thanks to Audrey Kopp for the heads-up.
A Massachusetts town wants to become a bicycling city, building on a bike heritage that goes back over 100 years. Although honestly, just about every city and town can say that; it’s what happened in the past 50 or 60 years that matters.
No bias here. A Georgia college student gets the blame in the local media for hitting a bus with his bike, when he was actually right-hooked as he came off the sidewalk. Yes, he should have slowed or stopped before riding out into the crosswalk, and probably shouldn’t have been on the sidewalk in the first place. But the driver bears responsibility for apparently not noticing him on the sidewalk and pausing to let him cross the street.
This is who we share the roads with. A London motorist suffered serious injuries when a road raging driver intentionally plowed into him as he stood next to his car following a minor collision; no word on whether the other driver was arrested.
British pro cyclist Scott Auld was lucky to escape with a broken collarbone and various other injuries when he was the victim of a car crash while training in Spain; he was riding on the inside of a double pace line when the rider next to him was clipped by a driver on the wrong side of the road, crashing into him and sending him flying down a ravine.
Greetings from Los Angeles, America’s second-place city™.
The Super Bowl is over, but the rain isn’t.
So be careful out there. Light yourself up even during day rides, and ride defensively, because drivers assume no one in their right mind would ride a bike in weather like this.
My apologies to anyone who sent me links over the weekend. While I truly appreciate it, I’m afraid I lost track of some of the people who sent them. So please accept my apologies, as well as my thanks.
Even a separated bike path isn’t safe when it rains, as this driver ended up upside down on the San Gabriel River bike path.
It is raining☔️ and we are asking motorists to please drive safely while on the roads. We have had two significant traffic collisions already today and both drivers were extremely lucky. We remind you to please slow down and drive accordingly. #LARainpic.twitter.com/ev1CYTR0g5
— Irwindale Police Department (@IrwindalePolice) February 3, 2019
The war on cars may be a myth, but the war on bikes goes on.
After a New York bike rider raps on a man’s car to chastise him for parking in a bike lane, the driver gets out and threatens to shoot her in the head if she does it again.
Which is a nice, psychopathic response to a totally non-threatening gesture.
In a bizarre case, an 8-year old South Carolina boy claims a car full of men stopped next to him as he rode his bike, and the driver pulled a gun on him for no apparent reason.
A Nigerian journalist offers a tourist’s eye view of the City of Angeles, including a bike tour of Venice, after an Ethiopian airline begins direct flights from Togo. Although he seems to confused Los Angeles with San Diego, size-wise.
This is why people keep dying on our streets. Police in Gardena pulled over a suspected drunk driver who was weaving across the street, with a BAC over four times the legal limit — a level so high it’s usually fatal. He was already on probation for a previous DUI, and had an interlock device on his ignition, which he somehow managed to defeat.
A San Jose columnist credits bike lanes with a drop in bike and pedestrian deaths last year, equalling the number of homicides in the city, which is not necessarily a good thing. In the same piece, a former prosecutor and defense attorney tries to excuse DUIs, saying everyone does it and drunk drivers should get off with just a diversion class. I’m not saying he’s completely full of shit, but if someone gave him an enema, he probably disappear entirely.
The San Jose Mercury News says Complete Streets are spreading across the state. Except in Los Angeles, of course, where too many councilmembers lack the courage to stand up to NIMBYs and traffic safety deniers.
Stephen Katz forwards a rare story of forgiveness, as the family of a bike rider killed by a dangerous bus driver on the campus of the University of Texas decides to turn the other cheek.
Tour de France winner Geraint Thomas offers UK readers advice on buying a bike, from ebikes and single speeds to gravel bikes and roadies. No offense, but is a pro cyslist who probably hasn’t bought his own bike in years really the best person to offer advice to casual and transportation riders?
In today’s edition of two countries divided by a common language, English authorities warn people not to ride croggy. And yes, I had to click the link to learn what the hell that meant. Just like you will.
After police caught up with a British hit-and-run driver, she claimed she didn’t stop because she didn’t do anything wrong, and that the bike rider she ran down was trying to get hit. No, really, Because we all enjoy pain, especially when it’s delivered at the end of a bumper.
Great Britain’s future heir and two spares enjoy daily bike rides and dog walks, as Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis — third, fourth and fifth in line for the British crown once their father and granddad kick the bucket — enjoy a relatively normal upbringing with their self-defense and evasive driving-trained nanny.
Horrifying story from Scotland, where a driver hit an Edinburgh bicyclist with his van, talked him into getting inside to take him somewhere to get help — then dumped him in the street a few blocks away, dragging him out by his leg.
A Kiwi columnist says don’t waste time arguing over e-scooters, when the real danger is quad bikes. Which aren’t really bikes at all, since they have four wheels.
Thanks to Bill Clare (no relation) for the heads-up.
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Sometimes it takes awhile to get to the punchline.
All week we’ve talking about the Aussie man who illegally drove on a bike path to scream abuse at the two bicyclists riding legally on the parallel roadway.
UC San Diego is celebrating the opening of a new bridge over I-5 linking the two sides of the campus, with sidewalks and bike lanes to cut commute times and improve safety for non-driving students and faculty.
Correction: I initially wrote San Diego State University when I meant UC San Diego. Thanks to Robert Leone for the tip, and Charles for the correction.
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OC bike lawyer Ed Rubinstein offers a correction to yesterday’s item saying you have two years to file a lawsuit if you’re injured in a crash.
The comment about the deadline to file a civil suit in California after a crash is accurate, but dangerously incomplete. The deadline to file a personal injury or property loss against a private person or entity is correctly stated as 2 years. However in California if a public government entity is involved (I.e., state or local government and any public entity e.g. CALTRANS, CHP, a public school or university) you must first file a claim within only 6 months (California Tort Claims Act Gov’t Code 810-996.6). So if a cyclist is hit by a school bus, public transit bus or a police car, the deadline is 6 months to first file a claim. Also the 6 months claim requirement applies if the crash involves a dangerous road condition.
Today’s racing news is all about the Amgen Tour of California.
Almost, anyway.
The full route for this year’s race was released yesterday; officials describe the 773-mile route as the longest and most challenging yet. But once again, women get the scraps, with just three stages totaling 177 miles.
In non-AToC news, the sexist prick clearly didn’t fall far from the tree. After Belgian pro Iljo Keisse walked with a small fine for rubbing his genitals against an Argentine waitress while posing for a photo, his father claims that she was partly responsible for being “very suggestive with her ass.”Note to clueless pricks: It doesn’t matter what the fuck a woman does — or what you think she does. No one has a right to touch another human being in a sexual manner without their consent. Period.
And yes, he may have been texting while driving a car with expired plates, was already wanted for evading police, and drove off down a one-way street when a bike cop tried to pull him over.
“She was drunk or she was crazy or something. She was not normal. I could feel it the whole time I was on the bus,” Mitchell said. “She was all over the place. One second she’d be 34 miles per hour, then 17 miles per hour, then 21 miles per hour. There was nothing steadfast about it.”
Not exactly the most comfortable way to get from here to there. And as usual, it was the guy on the bike who paid the price.
Thanks to Stephen Katz for the heads-up.
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This is who we share the roads with, part 3.
A drunken Honolulu driver killed three people when he somehow drove his truck across three lanes, jumped a traffic island and hit six people, followed by crashing into a pole, then into another truck.
Three other people remain in critical condition, including the driver of the other truck.
Initial reports indicate one of the people killed was on a bicycle.
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CiclaValley points out that the new Spring Street sort-of-but-not-really protected bike lanes don’t seem to have hurt filming, unlike the Hollywood rebellion over the previous green lanes.
Not bias here. A Marin newspaper says six months is plenty of time to judge if a pilot bikeway program on the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge is a success. Let’s see if they say the same thing about the area’s next highway project.
In yet another example of our legal system keeping a dangerous driver on the road until it’s too late, a Las Vegas hit-and-run driver with a previous DUI conviction downed three-quarters of a gallon of beer before he ran down a bike rider. Then downed another three-quarters afterward because he said he was going to jail anyway.
Toronto votes to make a set of separated bike lanes permanent after they reduced crashes involving bicyclists by a whopping 73% during the pilot period. More proof that bike lanes work, despite what the traffic safety deniers claim.
No size shaming here. An Irish rugby player says when he sees someone who weighs 280 pounds riding a bicycle, he wonders “What’s the point?”The point is a) they’re improving their health, b) they may be going somewhere, and c) they’re enjoying themselves. So get over it, already.
Hurry, and you might be able to score one of two remaining handmade ti bikes inspired by the ancient Chinese imperial court in the Forbidden City, for just under $6,000; the other seven have already been given to foreign dignitaries as national gifts. Or you could just ask your favorite dignitary to give you theirs.
January 30, 2019 /
bikinginla / Comments Off on Morning Links: Garcetti skips White House run, bike riding bank robber, and Colville-Andersen thinks you’re lazy
It looks like we’ll have Eric Garcetti to kick around for the next few years.
Now maybe he’ll finally get back to fighting for his own policies like Vision Zero and the Great Streets program, which have suffered from a significant backlash while Garcetti has been crisscrossing the county testing tepid waters.
Or maybe just start fighting.
According to the article, Garcetti says he’s skipping a run for the White House because he wants to finish the work he stated.
Let’s hope he means it. And shows a lot more backbone than we’ve seen so far.
Photo shows LA Mayor Eric Garcetti signing the Vision Zero proclamation; photo from lamayor.org.
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From track cyclist, to French Foreign Legionnaire, to bank robber.
He’d throw the money in the trash, or leave it where homeless people would find it. At least until he developed a crack habit, and needed money to buy that bike.
His undoing came as he was making his latest getaway, when a cop wondered why a Lycra-clad roadie on an orange bike would be carrying a messenger bag.
Apparently, Mikael Colville-Andersen, the host of Copenhagenize and self-appointed ambassador of Danish bicycling, isn’t a fan of ebikes, or the people who ride them.
It appears that all these able-bodied people who bang on ad naseum about e-scooters and e-bikes don't give a fuck about public health or safety and prefer just to announce to the world that they are lazy af. Lazy af people should promptly unfollow me. Life is too short (yours)
Sad news from Stallion Springs, where a Bakersfield woman was killed in a crash. The Bakersfield Californian felt the need to say she wasn’t wearing a helmet, but failed to note whether she died of a head injury or if her injuries could have been survivable with one.
A Florida driver spotted a bicyclist riding on the shoulder of a highway, towing his dog in a trailer, and moved over the the left lane to give him room. Except he cut off another driver, who swerved into the right lane, clipping the first car and spinning into the bike rider. At least the dog survived; his owner wasn’t so lucky.
An Israeli MD has developed a startup to collect data on the severity of car crashes, so emergency room physicians have a better idea of what to expect when a patient is brought in. Call me crazy, but wouldn’t it be better to just avoid crashes in the first place?
